The Jonathan Kogan Show

Jonathan Kogan:
one and we are live everywhere and not on Twitter and we're just going to leave it that way and it is what it is so it's fine. Welcome to The Jonathan Kogan Show everybody. Very exciting day. Very exciting day. Have an amazing guest and I mean honestly if this was maybe like two years ago I'd have to make like a formal introduction with some detail but now everybody knows who you are for good reasons. Dr. Robert Malone, welcome to the show.

Robert Malone:
Thanks a lot, Jonathan. Thanks for having me on. These are absolutely interesting times. And you mentioned everybody knows who I am and that's kind of a two tribe situation. I am either the devil incarnate or a great American hero, depending on who you talk to. And then within the great American hero, there's a division between those who think that I'm controlled opposition actually sneakily. working for the deep state to somehow convince people to not accept the vaccine or resist the government. I'm not sure what the logic is there, but it's widely spread versus those that are real supporters. So yeah, it's an interesting landscape and it's all got even more complicated now because Bobby Kennedy, RFK Jr. is polling fairly well. And that's creating huge threat for the Democratic Party, which has brought out all of the weaponized propaganda. And I kind of get sucked up into that a little bit.

Jonathan Kogan:
Did you watch actually the today he was in front of Congress? Did you watch that?

Robert Malone:
No, I didn't, but I read Merrill Nass's running account of it. And it seems like they've overstepped to such an extent that the story is not about their intended storyline, which is Bobby Kennedy is a racist because he said these truthful things about the relative specificity of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. This is just empirical science scientific fact. And it doesn't imply that it was necessarily engineered to that purpose, but those are the facts that it is relatively selective for some ethnic populations. But this has obviously been weaponized, and Bobby was just citing that literature, but it's been weaponized to try to portray him as somebody that is racist and promoting the idea that, I don't know. the logic here that somehow it's a good thing that they engineered the virus this way. I don't get it, but it's clearly been, you know, the usual kind of corporate media weaponization strategy that I've been subjected to and so many others have through the last three years. One of the lovely things about having experienced it is that it becomes a lot easier to see through it. doesn't make it hurt any less, doesn't make it any more just, but at least you're not confused.

Jonathan Kogan:
Absolutely. I mean, I see just those buzzwords. Even from the outside, I get it from a smaller group of people. I'm not there in the... Not as many people know who I am like they do you, so you get the whole mainstream media, all that stuff. But just you see the same thing with Bobby Kennedy too. You just hear him, right? They say these exact words all the time, baseless conspiracy theories, far right, anti-Semitic, racist. It's just the same thing. where eventually

Robert Malone:
Right.

Jonathan Kogan:
over time everybody's

Robert Malone:
Yes.

Jonathan Kogan:
going to be racist, anti-Semitic, far right. Conspiracy theorist.

Robert Malone:
Well put, the anti-Semitic was important to get in there because what happened, and we've tracked this in our substack and written essays about it, Peter Hotez with the tip of the spear, you'll remember the notorious Peter Hotez. And just as an aside, I know because you like comedy, I was thinking I need to start wearing a bow tie to confirm the conspiracy theory

Jonathan Kogan:
and

Robert Malone:
that

Jonathan Kogan:
a

Robert Malone:
I'm

Jonathan Kogan:
white lab

Robert Malone:
actually

Jonathan Kogan:
coat.

Robert Malone:
controlled opposition. And yeah, why not? You

Jonathan Kogan:
course.

Robert Malone:
know, play it up. So Peter actually wrote a book and a peer-reviewed publication in a very obscure Indian journal making the case that Anti-vaxxers are also anti-semites. It was really tortured logic based on a couple of anecdotal observations not the least of which is that he identifies as Jewish and people are critical of him and therefore they are anti-Semitic, anti-vaxxers based on his own ethnic self-identity. But what really was behind this, you know, all of this, you can see is the weaponization of language. And the term anti-vaxxer was absolutely a weaponized term. try to belittle and demean and defame people that the pharmaceutical industry didn't want to have a voice in national discourse. Well, just as an aside, this is all about the Overton window, what is allowable speech. And so anti-vaxxer has been attempted to be labeled as disallowed speech. And what they did was a tactical mistake. They defined anybody that was against vaccine mandates as an anti-vaxxer. It's actually Webster's dictionary was changed, which tells you something about who's controlling what goes into Webster's dictionary. And so they, by default, defined... the plurality, if not the majority of Americans, is anti-vaxxers because most Americans are against the mandates that were imposed on us. And suddenly the term anti-vaxxer no longer had its magical powers. And so they had to create some other words to substitute for that. And so they tried to build the connection that anti-vaxxer was anti-Semitic because nobody's anti-Semitic, right? That's clearly outside the Overton window. You can't be anti-Semitic. Otherwise, you're not allowed to participate in national discourse. That's how that played. That doesn't seem to have gotten the traction that they wanted. So now they're having to go to even more extreme levels. Of course, the alt-right or far-right, remember they labeled Giorgio Maloney, the current

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah.

Robert Malone:
far right when she was in her election cycle and tried to draw parallels between her and Mussolini,

Jonathan Kogan:
Thanks for watching!

Robert Malone:
neglecting to observe that actually both Mussolini's fascist regime as well as the German fascist regime actually came from the left. But that's how this game is played of the very sophisticated efforts to manipulate public perception.

Jonathan Kogan:
So, let's dive into that. That's one of the biggest things I wanted to ask you, and I've heard you explain it all over the place, but for those who haven't heard it, what is fifth generation warfare? Where does it come from? What does it mean? And then if you can give some background on fourth and third, all the way to one, how did we get here? And just describe for people who may not have heard the term.

Robert Malone:
So one of the things about fifth generation warfare, which is a euphemism for psychological warfare, using modern technology and psychology, and it was basically designed, it's evolved largely since World War II. It was versions of it were deployed in World War II. The Fort Bragg Psi War Unit used to be the Ghost Army that... basically did a trickery against the Germans before the landing in Normandy, where they used things like inflatable tanks and recorded sounds of armor movements, et cetera, to confuse the German command. And out of that is, and by the way, those were all largely humanities and artists that were recruited for that. So that's the roots. And then in the UK, the roots come from psychology in general. So this is GCHQ and its various operations run by MI5 and particularly MI6. And of course, they're all tied together. It's now very much the intelligence community and the Five Eyes Alliance, which is the alliance of the intelligence communities of UK, US, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. Australia, pardon me. But what is fifth gen warfare as opposed to the others? So let's just kind of walk through that a little bit. And the misnomer is to imagine that all of these generations of warfare exist independently so that you can't have first gen warfare together with fifth gen warfare, that they're all discrete categories. They're not, it's all a blending. And a case, strong case can be made that fifth gen warfare was deployed by Sun Tzu back in the Chinese Empire. And many of the core principles of fifth generation warfare are enumerated in Sun Tzu's art of war. So.

Jonathan Kogan:
Can you give an example of that? I've never heard that before.

Robert Malone:
I don't have the quotes, but you know, for instance, one of Sun Tzu's great quotes is that the objective is to win before you ever engage with the enemy, and you do that through these propaganda methods. There's a whole series of quotes from Sun Tzu that are often cited by the academics and others that have enabled fifth-gen warfare. So I guess let's start off with what is fifth-gen warfare. This is a suite of technologies that were developed in response largely to guerrilla warfare, which of course has been ongoing for a long time, but in particular, the... think a strong case could be made that the US military industrial complex has never won a battle against a guerrilla insurgency. They lost the Vietnam War, which is absolutely a guerrilla insurgency. Syria is ongoing, Afghanistan they clearly lost. It kind of goes on and on. So... Maybe talk about fourth generation warfare, which is this insurgency guerrilla type activity, which is hybrid. It's both kinetic warfare with bullets, and then also, psi war in the sense of the insurgents will often tie to an underlying philosophy. Mao is a great example of successful fourth generation warfare, where a... a political philosophy or religious philosophy is used to persuade actively a populace that the goals and objectives of the insurgents are aligned with the best interests of the populace whether it's their religious interests and belief systems, etc. And often This is done through a variety of different types of media and propaganda. And in combination with kinetic warfare, bullets and guns and things like this, typically not tanks and jet fighters, because this is asymmetric warfare. Fourth generation warfare basically evolved as a counter to the overwhelming force and capabilities of the US military coming off. World War II and our dominance geopolitically. And so what's an insurgent to do in the face of atomic weapons and M1 tanks and F-18s and F-16s, et cetera, and specter gunships, et cetera? And so it was devised that one could win these guerrilla conflicts through a combination of small skirmish kinetic guerrilla battles and propaganda and pushed out into the general populace to get the populace to endorse the insurgency as opposed to the American public government or whatever the opposing force was. developed and really refined in response to this. And it has a number of key characteristics. Number one is that from the outside, fifth-gen warfare looks leaderless. And so this takes a lesson from fourth-gen warfare. One of the things that is very effective in Al-Qaeda that I think was learned by those, the proponents of fifth-gen warfare. is that after Osama bin Laden was assassinated, the al-Qaeda organization became highly decentralized and just had as a core concept certain strategic objectives, high-level strategic objectives. But it didn't have a bunch of tactics that were coordinated from a central command. So it had the logic of defeat the opponent, the religious opponent, and kill Americans. And we kind of don't care how you do it. This is our general mantra, and go forth and achieve with IEDs or whatever. And it The consequence of that is that it makes it extremely hard for a central command based military to operate strategically against such an opponent because they can't identify a clear leader. So you'll notice with the drone strikes and everything what we like to do, we I speak, not me personally, but the United States Military Industrial Complex likes to do, is to identify an opponent. and assassinate them with a drone strike or with a sniper or such like. And this has been a core tactic of the intelligence community now for decades, whether it's overthrow of elected governments or elimination of leader threats as identified threats to the United States. So the whole idea of decentralization,

Jonathan Kogan:
You mean spreading democracy.

Robert Malone:
well, you warned me that you are time to time. So decentralized is a key feature that was taken from advanced fourth-gen warfare and applied in the fifth-gen warfare environment. So in a fully operational 5G warfare, which has nothing to do with cell towers, environment, the people that are being subjected to this technology are unaware that it is happening. They're unaware of who the leader is. They're unaware that they are having messages and management of information deployed on them. They just accept it as a part of their daily routine, like reading the New York Times, the Washington Post, which are obviously now. converted into government propaganda outlets for the United States government. So fifth-gen warfare is typically not kinetic based. It is focused on civilian populations largely. There is no differentiation between combatants and noncombatants. All are treated as combatants. So you... are subjected to the same ethical structures that a formal military combatant would be. In other words, they have no ethical boundaries as to what they can and will deploy on you in a fifth-generation warfare environment. Information and the associated psychology of information like nudging, et cetera. is at the core of fifth generation warfare. And the battleground is no longer for territory in fifth gen as it is for zero through fourth gen warfare, which is all about territory, conquering territory, controlling territory. In fifth generation warfare, the battleground is your mind. It is what you think and believe. It is the landscape of information that you are encountering. So, under a fifth generation warfare operating environment, all information is ideally controlled. So you only have access to the information that these hidden hands, because that's part of the definition is they should not be visible. These hidden hands are controlling so that you only receive the information they want you to receive, and you only receive it in channels that is spinning it so that you are getting them, you are receiving the direction on how to interpret this information from outside sources. You're not being allowed to think for yourself and you're not encouraged to think for yourself, but rather you're told what to think about the information that you're allowed to hear or see. And you can see this, for instance, as a great example recently, Project Veritas in the post-James environment, where a lot of people don't want to deal with Project Veritas, but they recently captured an interview with a CNN producer in which he said the quiet part out loud that CNN had as its mission to ensure that Mr. Trump was not re-elected. and that he was taken out of office. That was an explicit mission at CNN. And they propagated that through their control of information, media, clips, et cetera, and that now they're going to pivot to climate change as their main agenda, and are going to be pushing out all kinds of media clips about the warming earth and tragedies associated with heat waves, et cetera. And. and climate events and emergencies. You can see it in the BBC news, particularly on the weather, it's really clear. You can take clips from weather broadcasts from 10 years ago, where they have a pattern of temperatures across the UK. And they show those on a green background, because traditionally they're very green islands, UK and Ireland. And... Now they will take the same temperature profiles and show them against a red and orange background indicating heat.

Jonathan Kogan:
It's unbelievable.

Robert Malone:
So that's another example of this manipulation of information and imagery to evoke in you subtle emotional and psychological reactions. Of course, all this plays into Matthias Desmetz' theories regarding mass formation or mass psychosis. Terms which have been in the literature for a very long time. I did not invent them and neither did Matthias. And they can be traced certainly to Sigmund Freud, but they've been in use for a long time. So fifth gen warfare is psyops. It is psychological warfare in which everything you think, believe, encounter, all information is carefully managed to evoke a psychological response on your part that's consistent with the political agenda of those that are trying to push it forth. Fourth gen, walking backwards as I mentioned, is the approach typically used by most guerrilla insurgencies across the world, which is a hybrid of kinetic and propaganda war, often with a religious component. And it's still a battle for territory. The Afghanis won. They, you know, the Taliban now controls Afghanistan. A case can be made, strong case can be made that all the messaging about Ukraine has been highly successful in the NATO countries and it's absolutely fifth gen warfare, but has been unsuccessful outside of NATO. Another example you can see of fifth generation warfare is all of the confusing stories that have come out about the explosion and disruption of Nord Stream One and Nord Stream Two. It's pretty clear that the United States was responsible for that, but we've put out the, we the United States, State Department, intelligence community, et cetera, and allied journalists have pulled out, put out all kinds of confusing, improbable stories. to try to obscure that issue. Stepping back, third generation warfare is basically the technology that gave the Germans the advantage in World War II, particularly at the start of World War II. Many historians suggest that the Maginot Line that France had deployed was actually superior technology to what the Germans had at the start of the war. But what the Germans did was, they had decentralized command chains so that they pushed a battlefield command authority down to lower level field commanders. Think of Rommel, for example, and allowed them to adapt to a battlefield situational environments. And whereas... Traditional second generation warfare like in World War I still relied on a strong command chain with central command and the line troops and their commanders, captains, majors, colonels, all just performing according to direction from central command. But what the Germans did is they allowed the battlefield commander's operational latitude. And that resulted in their ability to basically run around, to react in a much more prompt way to threat environments than those troops that were under centralized command. So that was the big change in third generation warfare, which still used kinetic weapons, although they were more advanced kinetic weapons. Second gen warfare is essentially World War I, or... case can be made the Civil War, we still have central command. You know, when Stonewall Jackson was taken out, that resulted in a huge change in the strategic landscape for the Confederate States Army, for instance, in the battles here around Richmond. So second gen has these more advanced weaponry technologies, kinetic weapons of more advanced rifles, et cetera. First generation warfare was more, you can think of knights on horseback. going back to the Peloponnesian War, these massive engagements of large armies that continued through the second generation warfare in the Civil War, for example, and World War I where you had battle lines and you had this sense of soldiers' ethics and you would stand the line and advance on the line and they would shoot at you. Remember, that was the logic behind the British Army. as it engaged with the colonial forces in the insurgent guerrilla revolution that was the American Revolution. And it was, you know, we can, there's the famous song about the Battle of 1812, right? You know, hold your fire until you can see the whites of their eyes. Down in Louisiana, battle for New Orleans. That you know, where American. irregulars were hiding behind trees and rocks and bushes, etc. And then shooting at organized British platoons. They were all nicely lined up. That wasn't supposed to be allowed ethically. That was against the rules of engagement. So first gen still has battle lines, it has central command, the technology of war is not advanced, it's still kind of swords and spears and pikes and things like that. And Gen Zero is you can think of skirmishes between tribes using sticks and stones and other things. So that kind of walks you through the five generations and each of those were displaced by an advance that allowed the next generation. And one of the key questions right now outstanding in the military strategists and theoreticians that think about fifth-gen warfare. And I just use this as a moment to shout out that Michael Flynn has a couple of books now that you can find on Amazon with some colleagues. And there are numerous people that have come up to me that have been involved in the fifth-gen PsyOps units here in the United States. As I mentioned, there's a large one in Fort Bragg. There's another one out on the West Coast down by San Diego. And this technology is actually quite advanced. It's based in modern psychology, and it's also based in a very detailed understanding of the nuances of the internet, so the use of trolls and bots. Increasingly, a case can be made that the whole, what now appears to be disinformation Russian troll farms and bot farms was kind of a projection. It is undeniable that the United Nations, MI5 and MI6 in the UK, they call it the 77th Brigade. And units here in the United States, largely through subcontractors, have deployed large numbers of individuals who are paid by the government to interact on social media to advance the government's agendas. And, you know, we call them trolls and bots, but in many cases, they're human beings behind that. In the UK, I'm understanding that the 77th Brigade pays about 25,000 pounds per year for somebody to sit in their home and their flat. and write filth about whatever it is that the government wants them to write about. And it extends into things like the very active editing of Wikipedia, which is absolutely an MI6 operation. You can see their footprints all over the place. It appears to be one of the sock puppets associated with MI6 that was so aggressively editing my Wikipedia page for so long, but many others. Anybody that said anything about ivermectin? positive.

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah,

Robert Malone:
There's

Jonathan Kogan:
everybody.

Robert Malone:
a number of these people. Yeah. So, in the UN, it's now come out, the UN employed quite a large number of trolls to support the agenda, the approved narrative about the COVID management. So I hope that was kind of a rambling introduction, backwards and forwards and backwards again, but I hope

Jonathan Kogan:
No,

Robert Malone:
it

Jonathan Kogan:
that

Robert Malone:
helps

Jonathan Kogan:
was good.

Robert Malone:
your listeners to understand what we're talking about. And this is warfare. I'd like to just close on that thread by pointing out that this is military grade technology. It was developed for offshore combat. It was developed... during the Cold War, because the USSR absolutely did have one of the top fifth-gen warfare units in the world, and we felt we had to combat that and counter it. And after the fall of the Berlin Wall and some of the other subsequent events, the fall of Afghanistan, et cetera, or the recapturing of Afghanistan, those military units kind of faced, we could call it an existential crisis. How are they gonna survive? How are they gonna justify themselves? And what happened functionally was that they were deployed in the United States as part of the all of Department of Defense response to COVID. They were deployed against civilian populations using the full suite of technologies to support the government's position. on the management of SARS-CoV-2 infection. And that includes the kind of extension of Operation Mockingbird that we can now see so clearly, the integration of the intelligence community, the government, and large media. It's documented in the Twitter files very nicely. You can see that. It's documented in a series of disclosures that have come from the Canadian government, the Australian government, and the UK government, including the nudge units in the UK. And I argue that a government that is willing and able to deploy this extremely powerful in which the concept of individual sovereignty, of free will on the part of the populace is obsolete. You can't make informed decisions as a voter when all information which you're receiving is actively manipulated using military grade psychological operations technologies. wound up about election integrity and electronic voting machines and dominion and what happened in the last election, what happened at Kerry Lake, and we can go on and on and on depending on which side of the fence, which tribe you belong to. But I think that all of us can see that if a government believes that it's ethically acceptable to deploy fifth generation. warfare, PSIOPs technology on its own citizens, then the logic of personal sovereignty and integrity in voting and free agency of the populace becomes completely obsolete. It's an outdated concept. And I argue that what we've had what we've been able to see now over the last three years, at least I have, and many others. Many were able to see this before, I was not. But now it's pretty easy to see that we are being actively manipulated intellectually by our government to... advance the interests and agenda of the dominant party that controls the executive branch. And I believe that what's happened is the ethics, quote unquote, you know, situational ethics of the intelligence community have become accepted as the norm for ethics across the entire administrative state. A intelligence community that previously felt that it was acceptable to assassinate, overturn elections, etc., regime change, disrespect electoral decisions by local populations. and engage in all kinds of nefarious activities because the ends justify the means, the means being advancing the interests of the imperial state of the United States and its economic stakeholders has now become the ethics of the entire DC bureaucracy, the administrative state. And they believe that anything goes, that the ends justify the means. And so it's okay for them to do whatever they need in order to advance their political and organizational agendas. That's where we're at right now, in my opinion. And that's not okay with me. It's not okay with many of us.

Jonathan Kogan:
It's not okay with anyone who listens to this podcast. That's for sure. So there's so many questions. I was writing some of them down, but I mean, these are going to seem like silly questions. But what I can't understand when I think about this and I've, many times throughout the week, I feel like I'm going crazy because I feel like we're in the twilight zone and that happens often and I realize, wait, it really is happening and it seems so crazy that it's happening. It's just, you know, you don't think it's real. You don't want to believe it's real, whatever. But the people that are helping with these PSYOPs that are... people that are these contractors or part of these institutions that are doing this with the, I don't know, with the idea of whether it's like overthrowing democracy or implementing totalitarian controls. What I can't understand is these are people that live, you know, some of them live in the United States with kids that live in the United States. Like do I don't understand, do they, they're helping with this agenda and yet, but then their kids are going to go up in a totalitarian environment. Like why would they want that? I can't piece that together. Why people are willingly? are willingly and able to work for the demise of their own lifestyle. Does that make sense?

Robert Malone:
Totally. And I think that one of the things that I don't know, I don't understand the psychology either. Obviously. A couple of data points. It's long been known that about three quarters of any populace is readily hypnotized, among other things. psychologically manipulated. About 25% are highly resistant to these kinds of technologies.

Jonathan Kogan:
Milgram experiment, right?

Robert Malone:
It's also known, there's a number of them, and Huxley has a great interview you can find on YouTube that talks about this, you know, the author of Brave New World and the mentor of George Orwell of 1984 fame, in which he argues that this is a good thing. that governments need a populace in which about 25% are highly susceptible to psychological manipulation and 50% are generally susceptible and 25% are highly resistant. This is a good dynamic for governments who seek to control the population. So I think that there... My sense, well, let me put it this way. I wrote a sub stack in which I talked about the origins of the COVID crisis and my version of what's gone on here, in which I talk about, there's no question that there have been nefarious actors. There's also no question that there has been a lot of incompetence. And on top of that, there are various agendas being advanced that have been in development for decades and decades. And they all interact. So you know, Brett Weinstein, so long ago when we did that podcast with Steve Kirsch, Dark Horse podcast hit, he posited that a lot of this was emergent phenomena because of interacting complex systems. And he still, I saw him at Freedom Fest last week. And he's still falling back to some extent on emergent properties at complex systems. But I think a lot of people just go about their life. They want to feed their family. They've got a nice government job. Everything is compartmentalized intentionally. So they probably

Jonathan Kogan:
Mm-hmm.

Robert Malone:
have plausible deniability. They don't really understand what's going on up at the top level. And they don't really want to know. They just want to do their little job, push their paper, do what they're told, and collect their paycheck and eventually their pension, and feed their family and pay their mortgage. So there's that. It's hard to convince people who are economically dependent on a system that the system is a problem. But there absolutely are nefarious actors. And it's hard to deny that there is evil in the world. I think that's been one of the things that has been a bit of a revolution for me as somebody who has taken a position of being scientifically fact-based and grounded through my entire life. It's kind of been my persona. Is coming to terms with the fact that there is evil in the world. And whether you want to call it the devil. or what you want to call it malignant narcissism, or the spectrum of words. But for whatever reason, a lot of the language of religion, for many of us, becomes the only language that we know that can be used to accurately express what is transpiring. And it's led me to become more. more religious, more grounded in theology and recognizing that there is a transcendent truth and reality, whether you want to call it a being or you want to call it a shared consciousness. There is mysterious things in the world that's behind this. And some people are just impervious to the ethical conscious. consequences of their actions. And they don't look out on the horizon. And as you're saying, why wouldn't they think about the consequences for their children? And then of course, children to a certain strata of society, particularly young, are increasingly irrelevant. They are living in a world increasingly where a child of bearing and rearing is considered an optional and disagreeable task. Why should we do that? You know, when we can invest our capital and our time in. seeking pleasure through other routes. I think that those that choose that pathway when they get more elderly like myself and my wife are going to find that their lives are remarkably vacant, devoid of purpose. But hey, that's just that's me and many others that see the world the way I do and not everybody does.

Jonathan Kogan:
I agree with that. And just having my first child six months ago, a little over six months ago, I could say, I mean, literally I'm the most apolitical person ever. This is an apolitical podcast. We don't believe in politics. We think it's all a theatrics for covering up like a Ponzi scheme, but that's neither here nor there. And that not only apolitical, but that I wasn't religious. I grew up going to temple because I had to, but I was like, religion, it's just not my thing. And what's the... we have seen transpire over the past few years is kind of, I see it how you sort of described it, which is like, it's sort of forcing you to become more religious. It's almost like, did this all happen? Cause like, we don't believe in God. Like I don't even know. It's almost like we have a God shaped hole. Like I think Vivek talks about it very well. And if you're not going to fill

Robert Malone:
God's

Jonathan Kogan:
it with

Robert Malone:
shape will,

Jonathan Kogan:
God, let's

Robert Malone:
yes.

Jonathan Kogan:
say, then you're going to fill it with something.

Robert Malone:
Yes.

Jonathan Kogan:
And that could be climate change. That could be an individual or a political party. I'm like, that has to be what happened. So that resonates with me like really deeply. So a couple of things, I don't know which one to ask first, but I'm gonna go with this one. So it seems like when you really see what's going on, you've seen all these different pieces are going, it seems like a massive global conspiracy with the, I say on the podcast all the time, there's two political classes now, it's the elites and the peasants, and we're on Team Peasant, and the elites are losing their grip on controlling the world, and the peasants are becoming free, and they're trying to hold on, and that's kind of how I see it, and how the audience sees it. And so my question is, is that, Lex Friedman just had on You've All Know a Harare, which if there was a global conspiracy, we know he would be the mouthpiece of it, right? But I wanted to approach the topic open-mindedly, like we do on this podcast, and it's like, okay, if there's a global conspiracy where you see all these things like political opposition in many countries either being jailed or can't run for reelection, whether it's like Bolsonaro, what they're doing to Trump, what's happening in Peru, all these other places, you see chaos everywhere. And it's like, it seems like there's a... know, plan for a one world government and CBD sees all this stuff. But then you've all said on Lex Freeman's podcast,

Robert Malone:
More

Jonathan Kogan:
which

Robert Malone:
than saved.

Jonathan Kogan:
right.

Robert Malone:
We can

Jonathan Kogan:
And

Robert Malone:
put a

Jonathan Kogan:
uh.

Robert Malone:
pin and say, yes, there is a plan.

Jonathan Kogan:
But sure, but here's what I, when he said this, I was like, okay, how do you explain this part? Then he goes, there was a plan by the elites and the most powerful people in the world to go into Iraq and get this, you know, to have the success there. It was a unipolar world and they failed miserably. It was planned out and everything and it was, they failed. In fact, many plans at that high of a level have failed. So how do you explain that? If they can't even get that right, or were they intentionally supposed to lose? I don't know. It seems like if they can't get that right, how do they get this whole massive global conspiracy correct?

Robert Malone:
So just as a data point, now number one, this has been in planning for a very long time. That's now clear. A colleague of mine, who I'm going to keep anonymous at the moment, recently sent me something, a document called the Kissinger Report, which I need to put out in Substack over the next couple of days. which was previously classified, developed under Nixon. It is a full-throated justification for population control by any means. And when you read through it, you see that many of, you know, Kissinger led the development of this report. Remember, Kissinger is the mentor of Klaus Schwab. I have personally... Just as an illustration, all the way through this COVID crisis, I've been pressed on the logic that this is really surreptitiously about population control. And I've said again and again and again, that may be true or false, but I don't have the receipts. I don't have the written documentation to demonstrate that that's the case. There's also a case to be made that much of what we've seen during the COVID crisis, and Ernst Wolf has been one of the lead proponents of this theory, Ernst Wolf from Germany, German economist, that this had a strong component of economic planning. to mitigate the risk of a broad economic collapse that was pending as we were reaching a liquidity crisis, much as happened with the bank failures and what we call the financial crisis or the Great Recession. So there, I can say now having read this Kissinger report, and reviewed it, I'm convinced that there absolutely is a depopulation agenda. There's a population control agenda. And the things that are laid out in terms of action items are absolutely consistent with what we saw as the strange paradoxical mismanagement. of the COVID crisis, things that were done that just made absolutely no sense at all from a public health standpoint. And it was hard to interpret them as having anything other than a basis in a hidden agenda, what are more hidden agendas. And with this Kissinger report that's been declassified, I think we've got pretty close to a smoking gun about the depopulation agenda. Just like recently, for instance, all the way through, I've been saying, no, no. Graphene oxide in the formulations, I think that's probably an artifact. I don't see clear data. Nobody's done solid testing. And then, boom, the document drops. And Pfizer has graphene oxide listed as a component of the formulations. And so suddenly, Reinkele and I both have to say, I'm sorry, you were wrong. You were right. There is graphene oxide here. That doesn't mean that we go all the way to the vaccines are making you magnetic and enabling 5G control of your mind, but graphene oxide is in the formulations. for what it's worth. And likewise, I think that we're gonna see gradual drip, drip leaks of information that are going to force those of us who have taken a stance that we aren't going to buy into quote conspiracy theories when we don't see the artifacts to support that. we're going to continue to have to open our aperture and say, hey, no, we've got new data coming in. And it's consistent with this thesis that was previously considered a conspiracy theory. And one of those is depopulation. So these agendas, you mentioned Harari. In Harari's thesis that. The fourth industrial revolution is going to give rise to the fusion of man and machine, and we're all going to become man-machine hybrids, and this is a good thing. And that. Homo Deus, right? Man is God. We no longer need God. We can substitute humanity for God. And we can control our own futures and our own evolution through this fusion of men and machines in the form of AI and planable chips, Neuralink, all this other technology, functional augmentation. not just for war fighters, exoskeletons, and all that very, you know, matrix-y kind of stuff. The question is, do we really want to live in that world, in that fourth industrial revolution world that Yuval Harari envisions for us in a post-religious world, in a world in which There's an infinite number of genders, a world in which... in which we give up our personal autonomy through these various instruments of central bank, digital currency, constant surveillance, and the collection of massive amounts of data on every single one of us, so that each of us can basically be predicted using a virtual model driven by machine learning or deep learning. And in theory, it appears the thesis is that if we only had enough data, the reason why command economies and Marxism, let's say it, have failed in the past is basically the thesis is because we haven't had enough data. And now we can get enough data, we can process that data, and we have the tools to process that data. And so we can make a centralized command economy, Marxist world work in which, you know, they said it. They said, again, the quiet part out loud, you will own nothing and be happy because everything you think, feel, believe, encounter will be manipulated. You'll live in 15 minute cities in which you'll have a high degree of surveillance and no crime. because you'll basically be subjected to an environment that was predicted by the film Minority Report in which a thought crime will be disallowed. It's amazingly consistent with the dystopian visions of 1984 and Brave New World and so many other texts. as well as the dystopian visions of cyberpunk, science fiction genre, in which it's imagined that there will be the rise of a counterforce of punks, hence the name, this originated in the 70s when we had punk music. punks which would be resistant to these overlord authorities and act in all kinds of different ways to subvert them largely through digital means. That's kind of manifesting. And I think that Mr. Harari is grossly naive. If you read his books, he is not much of a scientist. He's not a rigorous thinker. is more of a imaginary, visionary, promoting a vision which is consistent with, frankly, the financial interests of the World Economic Forum, which is this trade organization of the 1,000 largest companies in the world that advocate that they should be the ones ruling the world because they could do it more efficiently than, for instance, democratically elected governments.

Jonathan Kogan:
he often refers to as a digital dictatorship too.

Robert Malone:
Still there, Jonathan? I think I've lost my host. Maybe I just put him to sleep. Jonathan, are you there? Testing, testing. So we appear to have, there's Jonathan is logging back in again.

Jonathan Kogan:
But Yuval Nohari, sorry about that, Yuval Nohari often describes it as a digital dictatorship. That's the term he uses often.

Robert Malone:
Yes.

Jonathan Kogan:
That there's going to be that centralized, it's just so dystopian. And something I tweeted this recently, I thought was really brilliant actually, it's very simple though, that basically these forces are branding dystopia as utopia. It just seems like everything that is dystopian, they're branding as phenomenal and utopian. It's going to be fantastic. The amount of people that are cheering on or cheering in the tyranny is like mind blowing. Maybe it's just that 25%. You were talking about 30%. But it seems like a lot,

Robert Malone:
Very book. Yeah.

Jonathan Kogan:
which makes me want to go back a little bit. When, well, actually before we go back, how, this might be a silly question as well, but in all seriousness, you were talking about how in fourth generation warfare before that, usually the way you win. is capturing a territory or a piece of land or something like that. How do you win fifth generation warfare? What's the final prize?

Robert Malone:
So there's a great quote, the only people that win in fifth generation warfare are the people who don't play.

Jonathan Kogan:
Okay.

Robert Malone:
It's profoundly corrupting. For instance, it's hard to engage in social media and not be influenced by the trolls and bots and the haters, etc. I can tell you that I have problems with motivation and being able to continue to engage in this battle space. when I'm constantly subjected to haters. I have a portfolio of haters, some of which appear to be paid agents that are attacking me on a daily basis. And then you have these useful idiots that will then regurgitate that. And it's hard not to be affected. when you're in a fifth generation battlefield because the lies are rampant, the ethics are nonexistent. I mean, it isn't anything goes. And if you wanna, I've written essays on, for instance, the sins of information warfare. There are those in this area, people that I have previously spoken with at rallies. that advance the notion that if they do it to us, we can do it to them. And what they don't realize is if you accept that ethic, you become the enemy. You become like them. And it is really, really tough to maintain your personal integrity and maintain a core respect for humanity and a commitment to community. when you're in this battlefield environment in which it's like a surrealist landscape where you can never know what's true, what's real. Everything is fluid and morphing around you. It's really tough psychologically and intellectually. Um, and,

Jonathan Kogan:
Doesn't it

Robert Malone:
uh,

Jonathan Kogan:
just test you? Isn't it just a binary test though of, are you a principled person or not? You either have principles that you stick to, or then you end up doing the same thing to other people, which means you never had principles in the first place.

Robert Malone:
Yeah, so if that's your criteria, you're going to end up with a very, very small population of people that meet your

Jonathan Kogan:
Okay

Robert Malone:
filter,

Jonathan Kogan:
fair enough.

Robert Malone:
in my experience. Yeah, so this is where the tensions is. If you want to build a movement, you want to have members of that movement. But there's a series of dynamics that have played out historically. In another essay I talk about the Jacobins in the French Revolution is just one example. There are some dynamics that happen in these tribal environments in which people who, it's easy to get caught up in the cult of personality and seeking attention. And... For those who, I mean, for my wife and I that write this sub stack, the battlefield is opportunity rich space. There's just no end of valid issues to discuss. And we put out a sub stack every day. And people are amazed that we cover such a broad landscape, but hey, there's a lot of stuff to talk about. But for people that aren't

Jonathan Kogan:
That sure is.

Robert Malone:
so. intellectually adept or however you want to say it, if they want to get attention and clicks and likes and revenue and all the things that comes with that, they tend to fall back on the fear porn model of CNN and so many other corporate media, in which to get attention, they have to say more and more extreme things. And so you end up with the assertions about snake venom and that the government is gonna put snake venom in the water, advanced by a chiropractor with no background in biochemistry, who apparently is completely clueless about what would happen even if you could make enough snake venom peptide to contaminate an urban water supply. And people were to take it orally, it would just get degraded in the gut. But

Jonathan Kogan:
But

Robert Malone:
that's-

Jonathan Kogan:
they even did better than that. They put a neurotoxin fluoride in the water.

Robert Malone:
So this whole thing reminds me of back in the 70s when there was a frantic fear about chemists from the San Francisco Bay area putting lysidic acid, diethylamide, or LSD in all the water supplies. And that would take a heck of a lot of LSD to have an impact on an urban population. So my point is that there becomes a dynamic where people become more and more extreme within one of these tribes. in order to get attention and likes and followers and all that dynamic. And they tend to become decoupled from reality. And what happens is both sides, in this case, we talk about a, you know, bimodal distribution, whether you want to call it left or right, or you want to call it Marxist and libertarians, or there's a whole different, you know, set of dimensions that you can use. But if you want to set things up as a binary and say we basically have two tribes and they're in opposition, both tribes have internal dynamics that Matthias Desmond would call counter mass formation that drives them to the extremes and will result in a situation in which those members of that tribe, that belief structure, however you want to phrase it. will be metaphorically beheaded using the metaphor of the Jacobins in the French Revolution. If you're not extreme enough, then you must be with the other side and you need to be got rid of. And so it creates, there's this organic process that drives people apart. And then that can be readily exploited, of course, by people that understand fifth-generation warfare. The divide and conquer strategy is very, very effective and time-tested. And so all one needs to do is seed into one of these kind of paranoid environments. The logic that Joseph is working for the other side. He's a controlled opposition or he's a serfish's agent or whatever the thing is and then suddenly everybody that's out there on the fringes that's worried about things or paranoid or just wants to get clicks and likes and followers starts regurgitating whatever this defamation is and you find yourself in the same position as you know, business insider spouting crazy stuff about Bobby Kennedy or the recent congressional hearings. It's very deep in humans, these things, and I don't think we're ever going to get around it. It's fundamental to the human condition is we have this tendency towards paranoia, fear. I'm always reminded of the classic line from Frank Herbert that's quoted in Dune, the movie frequently, but anybody that read the books is well familiar. Fear is the mind killer. Fear can be weaponized to completely shut down people's cognitive processes and just allow their lizard brain to act. And once that happens, once you deploy fear, whether it's fear of the Russians or the A-bomb or the aliens, people lose their ability to think logically.

Jonathan Kogan:
I mean, we've seen that perfectly. It's so ironic that the lizard people want you to use your lizard brain and they put fear. It's really ironic. But divide and conquer, we talk about that all the time on this podcast. It's amazing what you said actually. It's like a self-reinforcement cycle. It's like the people who are responsible for imposing this fifth generation warfare on the populace knows that the response to that is actually a self-reinforcement cycle that keeps the whole thing going longer and more deeper. Like the response. enforces the original action.

Robert Malone:
Yeah.

Jonathan Kogan:
And so then, you know, it's unbelievable. It's amazing.

Robert Malone:
And it can be tactically manipulated by insertion of narratives at the appropriate time. And there is a school of thought that what transpired between myself and Joe Rogan on the end of late December 2021 destroyed their narrative. It gave people a counter-narrative that allowed them to free themselves from this psychological manipulation that was being deployed on them. And I was just. talking truth. I was just saying, you know, this is the way things are. This is what I see in the physicians around me see. And I wasn't trying to be a revolutionary. I was just trying to be careful to speak truth, knowing that I would be attacked for it. But somehow that simple act of telling truth to the kind of audience that Joe Rogan is able to capture. And I've heard estimates that over 100 million people watch that. But then David Martin's opening talk at Brussels in our recent testimony, International COVID Summit into the European Parliament, I understand has been seen by over 2 billion people

Jonathan Kogan:
Come on.

Robert Malone:
because it was amplified in Eastern Europe.

Jonathan Kogan:
Oh wow, that's fantastic. We did a whole podcast on that. That was unbelievable. And by the way, when I heard you on Joe Rogan, I'll never forget. I know it wasn't, you know, we talked about it previously in this podcast, but when you said, I know it comes from, you know, the lineage of, you know, research and all that stuff, but, and Matthias Desmond, all that stuff, but when you said, mass formation psychosis, when you said that on Joe Rogan, all of a sudden, in my head, I was like, oh my God. And you started

Robert Malone:
Bing!

Jonathan Kogan:
explaining it and what you articulated. I was like, holy shit, this, oh my God. And then I shared it with all my friends in my group chat. And I immediately got responses of an NPR and a Business Insider article of how you're a fringe physician and a whack job and all this stuff and

Robert Malone:
Yeah,

Jonathan Kogan:
conspiracy theorist. And I go, guys,

Robert Malone:
fringe

Jonathan Kogan:
but...

Robert Malone:
physician that's captured literally $10 billion in grants and

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah

Robert Malone:
contracts from my clients, has over 100 peer-reviewed academic publications and over 15 patents, of which a number of them are behind me, that cover DNA

Jonathan Kogan:
We have

Robert Malone:
and

Jonathan Kogan:
a lot

Robert Malone:
RNA.

Jonathan Kogan:
of French

Robert Malone:
Pretty fringe.

Jonathan Kogan:
We had, we had fringe epidemiology. Jay Bhattachary is also fringe epidemiologist. We've had him on the podcast. So fringe, you know, take it with the, everyone knows what that means

Robert Malone:
Oh,

Jonathan Kogan:
now.

Robert Malone:
yeah. No, it's yeah,

Jonathan Kogan:
Um, but,

Robert Malone:
we're

Jonathan Kogan:
uh.

Robert Malone:
now getting to the point where we have a language translator. When they use

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah.

Robert Malone:
the term fringe or far right, it means, right?

Jonathan Kogan:
I immediately go listen to that person.

Robert Malone:
Yeah.

Jonathan Kogan:
Immediately. I was like, we got another one on the team, baby. Let's go. Hey.

Robert Malone:
Which shows that they're losing that war of words, at least within our cohort. And the problem is it's so easy to convince ourselves that because we're all talking to each other. That we are in our own reality bubble. And the problem is that as we sit within our reality bubble talking to each other, using the language that we all understand, it Our opponents are able to create boundaries that make it so that our words cannot reach the persuadable middle.

Jonathan Kogan:
So I think about that. So from how people react in your personal experience after that Joe Rogan, well, okay, after that Joe Rogan podcast, you were shoved in the public spotlight, probably against your own intentions. You probably didn't even want that because it's nice to have a private life, but there's benefits. So how people reacted and people within your inner circle and strangers compared to you, you still travel around now to all different places and talk to people, is the reception. Different is the cohort getting larger. Are you seeing a difference or do like you just said, I only see it because I'm in the cohort.

Robert Malone:
So one of the problems is that when I'm out in public, there was a period of time where I was getting a lot of, like I could walk through an airport, and three or four or five people would recognize me. Young men would fist bump me, which was an odd encounter. And that's largely died down. I was just at Freedom Fest and I was only there, I wasn't invited by the organization, I'm talking about Freedom Fest in Memphis. And I was only there because somebody that's setting up a super PAC for RFK Jr. wanted me to be there and wanted me to participate in some questioning of RFK for press and some other things. So So I was just there out and about. And it wasn't anywhere near the crush that it was at Freedom Fest in Las Vegas last year, where I was kind of mobbed. And

Jonathan Kogan:
But is that a good thing, ironically, which is like more people are aware so they don't have to go to these events because they're like, oh, we know now.

Robert Malone:
I don't

Jonathan Kogan:
Like

Robert Malone:
know

Jonathan Kogan:
you know what I mean?

Robert Malone:
the answer, but to get to your point about the public encounters and pressure, I was really struck. There's always some degree of starstruck. Oh, Dr. Malone, you're such a hero, blah, which is OK, fine, thanks. I appreciate your support. There's one young woman from Northern California that came and started talking to me. very intellectual, skinny woman, you know, glasses and all that. And she started talking to me and as she became a little more comfortable talking to me she said, well, you know, a lot of people think you're controlled opposition and, you know, it was kind of implied that she was thinking that too. And so then I had to go down the pathway of what does that actually mean? What is the accusation? What's the data behind it? What I've actually done, what I've actually said, which is grossly inconsistent with the idea that I'm an agent of the government because I'm busy doing my best to put a needle in the eye of the government. But and have been all the way through this. And so I walked her through that and she seemed to drop her guard. But these chaos agents have been very effective at spreading a lot of misinformation about me. I counted eight different ways I've been accused of being a mass murderer. ranging from I'm a mass murderer because I invented the technology, to I'm a mass murderer because I supported Matthias Desmet, because that allowed the global predators to get away with their global predation. So I was enabling the global predators, therefore I'm a mass murderer. And then there's the whole school of thought that I was a mass murderer because I raised concerns about the vaccines, and the vaccines would have saved more lives if it hadn't been for me speaking out.

Jonathan Kogan:
Okay, but that's factually untrue.

Robert Malone:
It doesn't matter. See, that's the thing in 5G warfare. Truth is completely irrelevant. And you have to come to terms with that. You have to come to terms with the fact that you're in a battlefield in which, unlike traditional warfare, there are no accepted rules of engagement. Everybody is a combatant. And there are no ethics. They will do and say anything based on the utilitarian principle that the ends justify the means. And so if they can vilify you and thereby make it so that your words cannot be heard, that's a win. That's acceptable. That's why I have these lawsuits about malicious defamation. is because a malicious defamation has become normative. And it all goes back to a case called Sullivan versus the New York Times. And that's way down a rabbit hole. But that was advanced at the same time that Mockingbird was advanced. This weaponization of of malicious defamation for political purposes and propaganda purposes is absolutely systematic. And I never would have been aware of it if I hadn't been subjected to it. But now having seen it and Paul Merrick seen it and so many others. You can't ever unsee it. I use the metaphor, it's like you walk into a dark room and you bump into the light switch and you see things you can never unsee. You become aware of how deeply and systematically, and for a long time, the US government has been propagandizing all of us.

Jonathan Kogan:
So let me ask you just a personal question real quick, which is, you've already done a lot in the past few years. Why not just delete the, just X out of this game? Just live

Robert Malone:
I'm

Jonathan Kogan:
on the

Robert Malone:
gonna

Jonathan Kogan:
farm.

Robert Malone:
go.

Jonathan Kogan:
Why not? Why not just, I've done the best I can.

Robert Malone:
Yeah.

Jonathan Kogan:
Delete the social media, delete everything, live happily ever after.

Robert Malone:
So for one, I had a consulting practice that I developed together with my wife for over 20 years, RWM Alone MD LLC. We consciously chose to destroy that when we came out and spoke about things. We knew that was no longer going to be a viable business model, and that I would be burning a lot of my former clients. and would become persona non grata in that sector. And in fact, that's the case. I don't expect to ever get security clearance with the Department of Defense again, for example, nor would I want it. And now, SUBSTAC is our primary means to support that in selling horses. So we all got to pay the bills. I got to feed the horses. I got to buy fuel and diesel and maintain the tractor and everything else. And I have to have revenue. So Substack has enabled that. I don't have a Malone Foundation backed by multiple billionaires donating large sums of money, like some of my colleagues do. I'm not selling vitamins and supplements. I never have practiced medicine. I've always been a clinical researcher. And so I don't have a choice. My wife and I don't have a choice. We have to stay in the game. And this part of why the studio here is what it is with its capabilities is so that I can interact with folks like you in a professional way or with Real America's Voice or Steve Bannon or whomever. And I can start putting out podcasts of my own through Substack or other mechanisms. Basically, I don't have a choice to just step back. I have taken a bit of a hiatus over the last two months and really cut back on my travel schedule. And frankly, I was just getting beaten down by the constant, constant attacks. and I needed to step away. And people have noticed that I have more color. I'm much healthier. I'm, I've dropped, I was over 190. Today I was at 165 and continuing

Jonathan Kogan:
Oh wow.

Robert Malone:
to drop and I'm working hard at it. And physically I'm in better shape. I used to be able to outwork a 20 year old. Just because I know how to use my body and I've been working with my hands and my body my whole life As a farmer and a carpenter And and so I'm in much better condition now And I'm traveling a lot less. It's a lot better for mental health And there's the whole issue of the burden of responsibility when you're given a gift of being able to reach people with your voice and your logic and your writing to carry on with that responsibility. And that's kind of how I see it, is I was given an unexpected gift. And I should use it wisely in the service of my country and my fellow citizens in opposition to what I see as the evil that has been revealed to all of us. And I don't want to shirk that responsibility just because it would be convenient. Hope I've answered your question.

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah, no, absolutely. The two things I thought, you know, what Batiyah Desmond says is, you know, the best way to counter this is you got to keep talking. And so I thought that was a big reason that might have been behind,

Robert Malone:
Yeah.

Jonathan Kogan:
you know, you got to keep speaking up. That's the only way to counter it.

Robert Malone:
Otherwise,

Jonathan Kogan:
Just talk,

Robert Malone:
the population

Jonathan Kogan:
and

Robert Malone:
will

Jonathan Kogan:
speak

Robert Malone:
go

Jonathan Kogan:
up.

Robert Malone:
even deeper into the crazy, into the mass formation. Yeah, so there's that.

Jonathan Kogan:
Right. And that's why Bobby, that's why Bobby Kennedy is also a big threat because he has a much bigger platform now because of that, which, well, I guess, okay, fine. Well, I'm done this. Well, I guess first I just want to ask, just because I'm curious. So when you're able to financially retire, will you retire or will you still think you will stay in the public spotlight?

Robert Malone:
I doubt that, you know, I'm not making that much off a sub stack. It's million

Jonathan Kogan:
You know what

Robert Malone:
dollars

Jonathan Kogan:
I mean, whenever

Robert Malone:
are not

Jonathan Kogan:
you're

Robert Malone:
pouring

Jonathan Kogan:
able

Robert Malone:
in. You know,

Jonathan Kogan:
to.

Robert Malone:
get financial in this environment. Are any of us ever going to be financially stable in a world where we're facing hyperinflation, central bank, digital currency, and in all of the ancillary toolkit? Those of us that are more middle class are never going to be free of the specter of the boot on our neck. So I don't foresee a time in which I would have 10 million in gold in the bank and I can just tell everybody to go, you know, bite. I just don't see it happening. And I don't know that I could find happiness in a world in which I was just following the guidance of Volterra and going and working in the garden. So I don't know. Seymour Hersh is still banging away, revealing stuff. And I'm. I just read another one of his articles this morning. And I hope that, you know, what a gift to be able to contribute to society to the point, you know, until such time as my mind becomes unhinged. I'd like to, you know, it's in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, self-fulfillment is at the top. and the opportunity to engage with younger minds like yours and serve as a mentor and be a steadying voice, hopefully of reason and balance. I think these are things the world desperately needs. And if I can provide value by serving in that way, then then I can go to my grave a happy man.

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah, and it's really helpful for someone like myself. And it's important to stay healthy too. I'm just curious, so I'm 34. How old are you? You're about 65?

Robert Malone:
64.

Jonathan Kogan:
So you're really, really old. So

Robert Malone:
agent.

Jonathan Kogan:
when you were 34 and you thought of someone or knew someone that was 64, were you thinking like, oh my God, that's so old, that person is so old. But compare that to how you feel now. Do you actually feel younger than you thought you would feel at 64?

Robert Malone:
Uh, yeah. Um, uh, I, I could not have imagined that I would have the health and the, and the life that I have right now when I was 34. And when I was 34, I was, um, in the throes of finishing medicine, medical school and starting a family and, uh, a young academic caught up in that world. Uh. My wife and I have always been kind of old souls, in that even when we were teenagers, when we came together, we were very aware of kind of the arc of our lives and that there would come a time when we would be older. And we should be aware of that, even as we were younger. And... Maybe that has something to do with her having been the last of four children. Most of her siblings were born in the UK, in London, in the poor house during the war, during World War II. So she has a kind of a family memory that's more Edwardian. And so we've always, and we're both bookworms. young, so very aware of the teachings of literature having to do with the passage of time. So maybe we're a little different from most folks that grew up in the 70s in central coast of California. But

Jonathan Kogan:
little bit.

Robert Malone:
you catch the subtext. But also lived in that culture. So I was an avid rock climber and hiker. Did the Muir Trail when I was 15. Hung out in Yosemite a lot, climbing. So, you know, be that as it may, we, I think we both feel now that we are reaping the benefits of this longstanding commitment. We're coming up on our 45th wedding anniversary this year, and we just have, or I guess it's next February, you know, we've made some ethical commitments to each other and how we live. knowing that the dividends for that and the investment in our education, et cetera, would only really kick in when we were older. And I gotta say, the other day, Father's Day, I spent with our older son and his wife and their two children, aged two and four and a half. And I was stunned at how hard it is to raise young children. And my

Jonathan Kogan:
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.

Robert Malone:
comment was, I must have retrograde amnesia because of the trauma of having two young kids, because I'd forgotten all that and man, it is hard work. I'm so glad we're through that. And there's also, just as Bobby does, people remark about his physical fitness. And I was once accused of being the physician that is prescribing him hormone therapy. But many of us in our age cohort are taking these modern bioidentical hormone supplements, which... is really extending our functional lifespan as active beings. And we'll see how that plays out over time. But yeah, I do feel in some ways like I've recovered from COVID and from the jab and my post-jab damage. And I'm. really increasingly on the mend, working on the farm. And I do feel younger than I felt a few years ago. The weight loss helps. But a commitment to healthy living, I think is super important as you get older and probably also important as a younger person. But through much of our lives, Jill and I, we were just so busy trying to pay the rent, you know, and our bills, most of our lives we spent. with almost nothing in the bank, just trying to make ends meet like most other people. And that doesn't always lend

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah,

Robert Malone:
itself

Jonathan Kogan:
help.

Robert Malone:
to healthy living.

Jonathan Kogan:
I was going to say healthy living, also healthy relationships is vital. So congratulations on coming up on the 45 years. That's wild. It's amazing though. And healthy relationships being surrounded by good people, then eating health. You living on the farm is, I'm absolutely envious of to be honest. I want to live on a farm one day as well. But I

Robert Malone:
We

Jonathan Kogan:
was going

Robert Malone:
homesteaded

Jonathan Kogan:
to ask you

Robert Malone:
it.

Jonathan Kogan:
one last question.

Robert Malone:
We were dead broke, basically. We had to abandon our property in northern Georgia because it was so deeply underwater after the real estate collapse. And so we did a deed in lieu of foreclosure, which meant we couldn't get a loan. My credit score is finally, just a couple of months ago, washed that off. We bought the property as unimproved hayfield from the owner at 5%. And it's all paid off now. There's not a thing on this property that we don't own outright, a tractor and cars and everything else. And we homesteaded it. Literally we lived in an office trailer illegally. And there was no water, no septic, no electric, no fences. We used a porta potty. We went to the local health club, which is about half an hour north to get showers. And

Jonathan Kogan:
Come

Robert Malone:
we gradually

Jonathan Kogan:
on.

Robert Malone:
built out, that's six years ago. So my point is you can do it. It is probably one of the most aggressive actions of non-compliance that you can do with the system that's been set up for all of us is basically to homestead.

Jonathan Kogan:
Actually, I'll end with this. It was on Joe Rogan, a rapper, Killer Mike was just on there and he said something along the lines of the most revolutionary act you could do is growing your own tomato, which was just kind of signaling how many people are eating their own food, are able to really are outside of a centralized system of any sort, whether it's food, financially, trading with a neighbor, stuff like that. They got us all centralized where they can control us. We need to become more decentralized, more active locally. I used to laugh at people who would homeschool their children, but now I think if you're in a good community and you homeschool with other parents, it's brilliant. It's just unbelievable. I never thought that

Robert Malone:
We

Jonathan Kogan:
the

Robert Malone:
homeschooled

Jonathan Kogan:
world

Robert Malone:
both our sons.

Jonathan Kogan:
would... It's almost like I look at it now, like you were just ahead of your time. I do think things changed

Robert Malone:
Thank you.

Jonathan Kogan:
more recently than the early 2000s, but I'm sure I'm pretty indoctrinated as well. I was definitely brainwashed, that's for sure. Up is down, left is right, but that... Whatever.

Robert Malone:
Yeah.

Jonathan Kogan:
So I guess, yeah, I was going to play a clip from the testimony today, but you gave me a lot of your time and I don't want to keep you too long. Dr. Robert Malone, I really appreciate you coming on. Can you share with people how they find you, find your stuff, can subscribe to you, can help you so you can survive on your farm and not have to go to the local health center to shower?

Robert Malone:
Well, thank you, Jonathan. More importantly, buy alfalfa for the mares

Jonathan Kogan:
Yeah.

Robert Malone:
and diesel for the tractor. So thanks for having me on, Jonathan. It's been a fun chat. And our primary feed, data feed, is the daily substack, rwmallonemd.substack.com. And because we've been committed to getting the information out, we don't require that you pay. So you can subscribe for free. It'll come to your email inbox, so long as you're not using a Microsoft product. Otherwise, it'll go to your spam. But if you want to subscribe and pay the $5 a month, we're very grateful. The nonprofit is. the Malone Institute. So that's MaloneInstitute.org. And on that you can find more detailed, lengthy information. We'll be posting the Kissinger report on that as a PDF. You can find a spreadsheet that we took months for us to develop with some partners in Europe. It's the definitive list of all of the World Economic Forum young leader graduates. These are all the indoctrinated people that are throughout Western governments and industry. And you can see who they are when they graduated. Elon Musk is a graduate.

Jonathan Kogan:
Come on, I was gonna say all these people that just happen to be running the world right now, so ironic, I didn't know he was on it though.

Robert Malone:
Yeah, he's graduated last year. It's a five-year indoctrination training program. And there are spread in industries all across the entire sector, not just in politics. And so you can find those names and where they work and what their backgrounds are and when they graduated and all that kind of stuff in an Excel spreadsheet that you can sort by whatever criteria you want. So that's at MaloneInstitute.org. And then we're on Twitter, Getter, Gab, and Truth Social at RWMaloneMD.

Jonathan Kogan:
and I will link all of those below. Everyone go subscribe, pay the $5 if you can't, subscribe for free, I don't see why not. I'll link all of those, Malone Institute, and then all your social media channels. And Dr. Malone, thank you again, genuinely, I really appreciate it. I'm sure the audience, I could speak for them, really appreciate it. And I'm sure it's really difficult, especially with all the attacks, not only for like months or weeks, but for years. So that's intense. I know it's like to get a little bit of blowback, but not at your scale. So I commend you for that and stay in the fight. And if we can ever help or if I can ever add value in any way, please don't hesitate to reach out. And thank you again for coming on.

Robert Malone:
Thanks a lot, Jonathan. Bye bye, everyone.